Quick take summary

Malvika emphasized the importance of community building, mentorship, and inclusive infrastructure in advancing open science.

She advocates for incentivizing research support and recognizes alternative research professions such as data stewards, community managers, and research software engineers.

Her nonprofit, Open Life Science, focuses on capacity building, leadership development to support researchers from underrepresented global communities.

Helpful resources

EMBL Resources

• The Data Science Center EMBL’s Support and Resource hub for managing, analyzing, and sharing data. 
• BioIT A community project at EMBL that builds and promotes computational biology at EMBL.

Projects Mentioned

• The Turing Way Project A community-driven open science project, providing resources on how to make your research open, ethical, reproducible, and FAIR.
• Open Life Science A nonprofit organization that provides community-based open science training, research, and support for leaders in research. 
  • Open Seeds Program A16 week mentorship cohort-based program for those interested in becoming open science ambassadors in their community.
• Do No Harm Guide A guide that explores the complex technosocial context around research globally. Chapter one is authored by Malvika, which discusses the economic and scientific divide in open science. 
• The Carpentries A nonprofit organization that provides foundational coding and data science skills to researchers. 
• ELIXIR An European research infrastructure that provides bioinformatic resources such as software, databases, training and computational support.

Transcript

00:00:31:17 – 00:00:55:18

Victoria:

Hi. Welcome to the Knowledge Catalyst. My name is Victoria, the open science specialist at the European Molecular Biology Laboratory. Joining me today is a very special guest, Malvika Sharan. She is currently the Senior Researcher at the Alan Turing Institute. She’s also one of the co-founders of Open Life Science. And she’s absolutely an expert in community building and open science.

So I’m really pleased to have her here today. And she has a very special connection with EMBL. So I’m happy to welcome Malvika. Could you tell us about your journey in open science and how did things starte at Bio IT? And what is BioIT?

00:01:12:16 – 00:01:39:20

Malvika:

Thank you for having me. This is really special to be actually back in EMBL Heidelberg. In summer, when you have very beautiful outside and very summer, sunny days. Yeah. I used to work in Bio IT, which is a community-led project on bioinformatics, community building, fostering people’s knowledge around bio computational methods. Supporting them in building open source tools and infrastructure.

00:01:39:22 – 00:02:16:11

Malvika:

And as I understand, now with data science initiative, it has morphed into something bigger. And my colleagues Renato Alves and Lisanna Paladin, who were involved in Bio IT, are doing incredible work on training and mentoring, capacity building, even working with industries on, data science skills and opportunities with academic research. So my journey in open science is connected to me being a researcher in a university and being somewhat lucky to have a supervisor who was working in open science and open source field that they introduced me to.

00:02:16:13 – 00:02:45:10

Malvika:

Konrad Forstner, who used to actually work in EMBL, previously introduced me to open science and I absolutely loved the community aspect of it, and learned about basic programing and GitHub and version control and had the chance to go to UNESCO to be part of this graduate school panel. And I really, really found myself at home with this whole experience, and I wanted to continue working in that.

00:02:45:12 – 00:03:09:19

Malvika:

So when I finished my PhD. Aidan Budd, who was the actual founder of Bio IT, was leaving because nine years in EMBL was over, and he reached out, and asked me to apply for his job. I was very intimidated because community management was not a profession in research and, finding something that is so aligned to what I wanted to do at the same time, in an institution like EMBL.

00:03:09:21 – 00:03:33:09

Malvika:

But also knowing that this would take me away from this classic career path was a very strange, but beautiful experience. And coming to EMBL and being in between people who were actually very interested in sharing their work and sharing their knowledge and not feeling isolated as when from a distance. Working with them was absolutely fantastic and I got to connect with people working in open science more broadly.

00:03:33:11 – 00:03:59:00

Malvika:

Got to use the position of EMBL in inviting those people to EMBL and learning about their work and connecting with their work, and also learning about open science beyond the context of research. I really thank EMBL for those kinds of opportunities that I had. So when I finished my time at EMBL, I moved on to join a project in data science called The Turing Way.

00:03:59:00 – 00:04:09:13

Malvika:

And that’s the project that I have continued to work on in the last five years. And during that time, also co-founded Open Life Science, OLS. And we can talk about that a bit more.

00:04:09:15 – 00:04:28:05

Victoria:

Yeah, of course I want to ask you about your experience in the early days of building a community. And I want to ask you, what are some of the major challenges? And, especially when you are connecting a community, especially with a topic like open Science. What were the difficulties and how did you overcome them?

00:04:28:07 – 00:04:56:19

Malvika:

Yeah, I said that there is no training or teaching for community management if you’re doing a PhD. It is really self led and somehow it really depends on yourself if you like working with people. And I always liked working with people. When I joined, I had a number of coffee calls with people who would sit in the cafeteria with a coffee for $0.50 and have chats about their work and learn about what they have been doing.

00:04:56:21 – 00:05:33:01

Malvika:

And one advantage of EMBL was that people are just big nerds. They just love doing what they do and they are very excited to talk about them. So there were people who were, for example, building mattermost for the entire EMBL, and they wanted to deploy that so we could have a secure in-house chatting system. We had someone who was building project management tool, that they want to, but they wanted to scale and get more people on board because if you have a centralized project management board and if you can look at everybody’s project and understand what they’re doing, wouldn’t it be amazing to find, guidance from someone on the challenge

00:05:33:01 – 00:06:01:06

Malvika:

that you’re experiencing right now? And then we also had, you know, Genomics Center, where people were doing lots of data analysis and they were quite keen on getting data management practices out there into more people’s hands. And we also had training and, generally, a peer review system in terms of the internal code review. We had someone who had set up the GitLab system, which I understand still is, you know, being used by people.

00:06:01:08 – 00:06:29:20

Malvika:

So we were kind of collecting these different interesting pieces of project and, make it known for the rest of the EMBL community. And then I was connected with The Carpentries, which is a training, platform for data science skills. And we were doing training on the carpentry software and data carpentry, here for the people. So, you know, teaching Python and git and also opening those training for external people.

00:06:29:22 – 00:06:49:12

Malvika:

So those were quite interesting places because, you know, our researchers are more than just researchers. They like to teach and they like to talk to each other. And they like to do hackathon and, you know, grab a coffee or whatever, you know. So we had this whole experience of trying to just be the best version of ourselves as colleagues.

00:06:49:14 – 00:07:09:07

Malvika:

And I think it was quite unique to have a project that was supporting that, and it was definitely championing that for way before I joined, EMBL, so I didn’t have to build community from scratch. I got to just have people in the community who were very invested in getting things going. So it was quite an amazing experience.

00:07:09:09 – 00:07:28:15

Malvika:

I think the challenge was to learn best practices, to make sure that, you know, I can do my job well, and I come from other people’s knowledge of building community. So reading, reading books, but most of the books were on open source communities and not so much on open science. So I kind of had to learn and build my own practices too.

00:07:28:17 – 00:07:35:13

Malvika:

And I think that’s what has kind of got me where I am now, to just be a champion for those practices and skills.

00:07:35:15 – 00:08:00:02

Victoria:

So from what I hear from you, I think you never looked back. And from that decision of whether I go down this route or versus doing the classical research path. So tell me a little bit more about, how did your experience with Bio-IT and connecting people and working with these different experts. And I’m happy to tell you that people have carried on this torch, and we still continue to use this infrastructure that’s that was built back then.

00:08:00:08 – 00:08:10:19

Victoria:

And they’re still a community around very much, to support them and raise awareness and help the research community pick it up. So, yeah. Where did that take you next to? What was your next step?

00:08:10:23 – 00:08:39:21

Malvika:

Yeah, I never looked back. I really loved working and I continued to work in community management. And a few years ago I got very lucky when I was allowed to build a team of community managers at the Alan Turing Institute. So that was very unique because, you know, it’s one thing to have one community manager and then suddenly you’re allowed to scale that and have community managers who are supporting different communities, like dedicated communities, but they’re also coming together within my team to share practices with each other.

00:08:39:23 – 00:08:59:19

Malvika:

One of the biggest motivations for me to build a team was that as a community manager, you’re really alone. You’re caring for a lot of people. You’re a really important but hidden part of this infrastructure. And it’s exhausting. It’s emotionally exhausting. It can burn you out. And there’s not so many people who would care for you the way you care for the community.

00:08:59:19 – 00:09:26:03

Malvika:

So having a team of other community managers who inherently know what you’re going through, can share their own tools and resources that they have built that could be useful for you, or to identify solutions to common challenges. It has been really rewarding to build that community with the team, team of community management. And that also led me and my colleague Emma Karoune to do this research on diversifying data science roles because we are like, we know that this is important.

00:09:26:05 – 00:09:48:10

Malvika:

And we were building on the practices of research software engineers that have been running that, you know, same narrative for over ten years. And now they’re recognized as an important part of the data science ecosystem, research ecosystem. Because we know that we have to depend on software, and we know we need to build software that is reproducible. And we know that these software need to be maintained in the long term.

00:09:48:12 – 00:10:13:02

Malvika:

And we have this talented pool of people who love developing those kinds of tools. So getting them to do postdocs really takes away from what we need in the system. And we have people for that. Unless also software engineering is really successful in the UK. And I know there is a German network for research software engineers, and in the US we have that and we see that being scaled in different continents and using their learnings.

00:10:13:02 – 00:10:42:04

Malvika:

We are building community management. We want research community management to be recognized as an important career pathway. And we have colleagues who are building teams of data stewards, teams of data wranglers. There are a lot of new roles that are coming which are not like, you know, it’s not invented roles. These things are happening in research. There are people who are doing this, but now we’re giving them titles, we’re giving them a career path, and we want to build incentive for them to thrive and survive.

00:10:42:06 – 00:10:51:20

Malvika:

So I hope that this conversation continues on, and we have more PhD students who are interested in this kind of work, and that they have the right career path and support for it.

00:10:51:23 – 00:11:11:10

Victoria:

Yeah, absolutely. So I just want to mention that we’re coming out of a conference, called in Science We trust. So a lot of the conversation come from, you know, what type of hyper pressure, hyper competitive ecosystem are we creating for the early researchers and what type of issues could arise? And not everybody can become a group leader.

00:11:11:10 – 00:11:35:02

Victoria:

And that’s in fact a a truth. And so how do we provide additional professional development opportunities for those who are supporting their community with research, software development. So how can we build more value for that type of work within the academic ecosystem? How can we get the funding support? So what are some ideas that you have for building incentives?

00:11:35:08 – 00:12:02:22

Malvika:

So my nonprofit, Open Life Science, teaches people how to do open science. Within that we definitely teach them this Unesco definition of open science. And we dig deeper into practices like open access, open data, open software, etc. but we have combined that with two aspects, which we call open science. We call open leadership skills, which are around how to design good research ideas, how do we design it for people.

00:12:02:24 – 00:12:21:17

Malvika:

And we have community management modules where we get people to understand ally skills and code of conduct and, how to run a community, how to support community members. And the reason we embed that within open science, because we don’t think we should be just focusing on these, open source, open data, open access principles, which are important, definitely important.

00:12:21:17 – 00:12:47:09

Malvika:

But to operationalize that, to implement it, we need other skills. But what I’m also recognizing that none of these are taught in universities. Maybe in a summer school, maybe someone gave a talk in a conference randomly or was invited as a speaker. It’s not part of the education system, which is a problem, because then it falls into the people who care about it, and we are always in the margin of incentives and credits system.

00:12:47:11 – 00:13:06:22

Malvika:

We’re doing it because we love it and we care about it, and we want to advocate for it. And I think if there are a few student paying attention to these sideline conversation, they would say, okay, yeah, that makes sense. But if they’re not brought into the conversation from the very beginning, it’s very hard to get them become excited about these practices.

00:13:06:24 – 00:13:28:08

Malvika:

So I definitely think that it’s important to embed these within scientific courses and not have it as like, you know, side modules or optional credit. So for me, that is something that was missing in my own education system. And if I didn’t have the supervisor, I would never be introduced to this. So it shouldn’t be depending on the chanced interaction with open science.

00:13:28:10 – 00:13:53:01

Malvika:

And I think if we can get more people excited about open science, why would they know the broken system then? Right? Like, how could you convince them that doing research not openly is the better way to go because they have been exposed to it once? It’s very hard to go back. And we also talked about it in this conference that open science comes with a lot of burden of trying to do a lot of things in addition to the research.

00:13:53:06 – 00:14:26:05

Malvika:

And I think it’s because of the incentive system. We’re not incentivized to open our work or we’re not incentivized to build a reproducible tool. In fact, if the journals didn’t make it mandatory, people wouldn’t put executable code or infrastructure that other people can reuse to reproduce my result. So, yeah, I feel like there’s this fundamental disconnect into what we want these researchers to become, as you know, integral work or quality research they do versus what we teach them and what we incentivize them.

00:14:26:07 – 00:15:00:09

Victoria:

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it’s been really interesting to hear your thoughts on the importance of this human infrastructure and this human resource that’s, available and also so important to develop in the entire open science movement without experts, without those who are supporting others, without valuing those efforts in creating, fair data and training others, for example, like the carpentry, is that people run without helping people to develop the skills and build capacity, then the the requirements or the ideas that we want to meet will be very difficult.

00:15:00:11 – 00:15:16:15

Victoria:

I want to follow up a little bit about what you mentioned earlier about, leadership. So how can how can community management and community building, build, leadership skills in the younger generation? I’m also curious about your own experience in this and and your path.

00:15:16:20 – 00:15:32:22

Malvika:

So when I was working with The Carpentries, that was one of the first open science communities I was part of, I could decide that, you know, this is the skill gap that I have, and I can go to the carpentry and I can figure out as a volunteer what can I do to help him build that skill.

00:15:32:24 – 00:15:57:00

Malvika:

So one of the skills that I really lacked was writing online content. You know, I didn’t have blog posts or I didn’t have a lot of like, nonscientific communication out there. And I recognized that I wanted to build that. So for a year, I curated the newsletter for the carpenters, and that made me feel very confident that, okay, now I know how to do this and I can go out and use that skill somewhere.

00:15:57:00 – 00:16:24:19

Malvika:

And, you know, I literally use that skill to build the Turing Way newsletter, which is a very important part of our communication. So very similar to this, other people come to the Turing way and they want to, for example, if they want to learn about how to use GitHub, they can contribute to the GitHub of the Turing way. They can see how the review system works on the GitHub repository, or how you can support someone else to contribute to open source project.

00:16:24:21 – 00:16:46:20

Malvika:

People can, for example, join a working group. So we have a lot of working groups in the Turing way, and they can decide to leave that working group, build that skill that they generally don’t have in a traditional research career. So I think open source, open science communities allows you to become leader in the capacity that you’re able to gain a lot out of that.

00:16:46:22 – 00:17:05:10

Malvika:

So I definitely think that not everyone wants to lead, and that’s absolutely fine. But if we didn’t have these kind of community leaders in open source/ open science, we wouldn’t have open source and open science at all. And in fact, it’s kind of funny that a lot of open science work really depends on these volunteer people.

00:17:05:12 – 00:17:30:08

Malvika:

And also like, you know, bio-it. It’s built by these people who are volunteering their time to say, yeah, I’m going to build this infrastructure that my colleagues need, and I’m going to spend my time building that for them in a way that they can use. If they didn’t care, that infrastructure wouldn’t exist. So, yeah, I think that’s the part of leadership we want people to learn about.

00:17:30:08 – 00:17:50:19

Malvika:

We call it open leadership that, you know, you can step up to do something where you have the power and you have the agency that you can use to build agency for other people. So, you know, sometimes phrasing things as if it’s not really you, but your work will have value and benefit for other people. Get more people excited and motivated about becoming leaders.

00:17:50:19 – 00:18:14:13

Victoria:

Yeah, that’s very interesting. And I had a very similar experience, also during my PhD, where I was able to participate in the promotion of open peer review, and that was I was just a PhD student. I was able to, analyze and collect peer review experiments and to have a voice at the table and to learn, as a very early career researcher, about the ecosystem of scientific communication.

00:18:14:15 – 00:18:38:07

Victoria:

So I think it’s a very empowering experience, and it really exposes researchers to this different side of work in science. That is beyond the bench that I was working with people, learning different perspectives, and learning from different stakeholders. How does the greater ecosystem work, and how can we take a scientific approach to improve science communication, dissemination? So thank you so much for sharing all of that.

00:18:38:09 – 00:18:51:04

Victoria:

I’m very curious about your path and your choice to start Open Life Science. Where did that come from? And how did you decide to get more and deeper into capacity building? 

00:18:51:06 – 00:19:13:05

Malvika:

That’s also related to EMBL. So I have a colleague called Berenice, who used to work in Freiburg University and was part of Denbi, the German elixir network. Both of us were deputy coordinators for the training in Germany. And that was part of my role within BioIT. So half of my role was to support the ELIXIR network of Germany.

00:19:13:07 – 00:19:37:22

Malvika:

And both of us were quite concerned about the representation of women and, global majority in open science. A lot of conversation we were part of. We were the only two women in the room. So both of us went through this program called Mozilla Open Leadership. And, it used to be a really favorite work among the open source community.

00:19:37:22 – 00:20:08:15

Malvika:

It doesn’t exist anymore. But during their last round, when they knew that they were not going to get funded for another round, they invited previous graduates to come and design a project that they can incubate for their own community. So Bernice and I were talking about building a community program for Bioinformaticians, and we got connected to Jo Yehudi, who’s now the executive director for OLS, to join us in this proposal because she had a very similar idea for Cambridge, and we put the proposal out there.

00:20:08:15 – 00:20:31:07

Malvika:

We got accepted. And we three are very, you know, dedicated people. We really wanted this to work. And this program came out of that. It was in 2019. And in 2020, COVID happened. But then Covid, this online work that we were already doing was, you know, we didn’t have to pivot a lot. We could recruit a lot more diverse people as a result of being completely online.

00:20:31:09 – 00:20:56:04

Malvika:

And we started with 20 of our colleagues from across Europe, mostly, and then we have now scaled to about 700 people. We’ve run 11 programs. We’ve got millions of funding from philanthropic organizations. When I say millions, it’s probably 1 million point something. Not a lot. We could definitely use more, but these trainings have allowed us to really reach to the community that we didn’t see representation from.

00:20:56:04 – 00:21:16:24

Malvika:

And that’s our journey and we’re really proud of. it We think that training and mentoring is very important. It’s really important to connect people who are doing good work and remind them that their work is important. And we evaluate and we put our money and resources in making them successful. And the program has now evolved into fellowship work.

00:21:16:24 – 00:21:41:15

Malvika:

And now we’re also launching this program called Seed to System, where we go beyond incubating new projects. We actually go to think more deeply about sustainability and maintenance and getting more people to understand and navigate the funding ecosystem, because that’s one thing that’s still very mystical for a lot of people, especially those who don’t have access. So oils really allowed us to go beyond Europe and work with people.

00:21:41:15 – 00:21:44:20

Malvika:

We genuinely want to see more of it.

00:21:44:22 – 00:22:12:05

Victoria:

Well, I’m going to ask a very obvious question, which is, why is inclusion and this broader inclusion of the communities and going beyond Europe so important to you? And, how does that come to your values and some of your core beliefs? Maybe in knowledge equity? I think we discussed this as well outside of the recording booth, but very curious about why this is at the center of your work.

00:22:12:07 – 00:22:37:21

Malvika:

I am from India, and, I wouldn’t call myself the most privileged person in India, but I definitely had parents who supported me to, come to Germany and do my studies and, I do know that the university is an institution with extremely smart people in India who might never have access to resources and infrastructure the way I did as a result of coming to Europe.

00:22:37:23 – 00:22:58:12

Malvika:

And then we are talking about India. We’re not even talking about other countries which are really poor, and, you know, recognizing that all of these communities have so much knowledge and experience that we never give attention to when we are in the Global North context. A lot of open science principles and narratives are also defined by people from the global north.

00:22:58:12 – 00:23:20:17

Malvika:

And then we turn to the global majority and say, hey, we have something to offer you without considering the fact that there is knowledge there in different forms. And there’s also this colonial aspect of that. English communication is the most important way to communicate science, or the way that things are being done in Europe is the right way to do it.

00:23:20:19 – 00:23:47:20

Malvika:

We wanted to move away from that. Well, I definitely want to move away from that. So definitely want to learn myself more about anti-colonial, anti-racist way of working in science and promote that as part of open science, because open science is about breaking down that barrier of knowledge, access, and working in solidarity alongside people and not with this weird power dynamics that, you know, colonialism has given us.

00:23:47:22 – 00:24:10:12

Malvika:

So, yeah, it really matters to me because I think it’s it’s our people like me. It’s our duty to, share that privilege and make sure that, you know, the doors that open for us remain open and get more people into the room with bigger tables and more platform to speak about our own experiences and our own needs.

00:24:10:14 – 00:24:20:10

Malvika:

So yeah, I really deeply care about it. And I think I’ve been lucky to be supported by really brilliant people. And I just want to share that space.

00:24:20:12 – 00:24:45:09

Victoria:

And I also shared a similar journey when I was doing this. Preprint works are looking into the representation of different authors from different parts of the world, and seeing that it was perpetuating the same inequality that the traditional publishing systems were. And I asked myself, why did I think a certain way of doing science is better? Why did I consider certain things prestigious?

00:24:45:11 – 00:25:00:18

Victoria:

And I really have to ask myself, where did this whole system of belief come from? And to look at it more globally? Again, I think about and recognizing the knowledge from my own culture as well. So yeah, it’s really nice to hear. And,

00:25:00:20 – 00:25:02:01

Malvika:

Can I share one more data?

00:25:02:01 – 00:25:03:20

Victoria:

Sure. Yes.

00:25:03:22 – 00:25:24:00

Malvika:

So I started to actually look and look at this framework called Do No Harm. And that framework in the context of research and I was thinking about is open science doing all good? So are we doing some harm. And definitely of course we have we are aware that open science is doing some kinds of harm in like, you know, excluding already marginalized people.

00:25:24:00 – 00:25:53:00

Malvika:

And then open access becomes so important that people want to protect that for their own benefit. But yeah, in that research, I looked into some data on GDP and investment in research and development. So about 70% of the countries are part of the global majority, so only 30% countries are considered global North. Out of that, ten countries have the highest, about 80% of the whole world’s research development investment.

00:25:53:00 – 00:26:13:17

Malvika:

So rest of that, rest of the countries have less than 20%. And that map is just really mind blowing. And when you look at this uneven investment in research infrastructure, you also start to recognize that if there are not enough money and most of these countries, how will we build better science or better career for these people?

00:26:13:22 – 00:26:45:09

Malvika:

How could these people feel that they have a career that will support their family? Right. So that’s one data. But there was another data on projection of AI that, the global not have millions and trillions of investment. All the companies we’re talking about are based in the US. Most of them are based in the US. And the projection is that about 15.7 trillion when it would be generated, by 2030, of which only 1.7 trillion would be invested towards the global majority.

00:26:45:09 – 00:27:06:17

Malvika:

That’s 70% of the people we’re talking about. Of course, it’s a projection, and we need to still look at it to understand that the global divide will only increase if we don’t pay attention to this divide that we are experiencing right now. If we don’t get more people involved in AI or data science, this divide is going to disadvantage a lot of people.

00:27:06:19 – 00:27:41:23

Malvika:

And also my colleagues are working with people in Africa who are building the tech union for people who are labeling data for large language models. And these people are given precarious contracts, not enough money. And it’s a really perverse system. So I feel like it’s very important that we understand that open science or research is so political and so socio technical, and not just about technology and how important it is for us to step back and think about the global research ecosystem as a single thing and not divide its perspective.

00:27:41:23 – 00:28:03:09

Victoria:

Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s such an interesting perspective to hear from the different ratios and the divide that we have. We’re at the moment where we could continue and make that projection a reality. So you mentioned this having this literacy and this awareness and stopping to reflect on this, but could there be other mechanisms?

00:28:03:11 – 00:28:22:15

Victoria:

Who are the key actors in this? And how can we, at least slow down or hopefully move towards a different direction so that more people and more of the nations, in the 70% could benefit from these developments and the advances in technology?

00:28:22:17 – 00:28:52:16

Malvika:

I think, this really it’s such a big question, right? Like, of course, we all know that there are really, few handful of companies and few handful of stakeholders who are making decision for rest of the world. And that is not okay. And I think if our government and policymakers and funders are not investing enough in things like open source, open science and global education, we are continuing to contribute to this divide.

00:28:52:18 – 00:29:17:06

Malvika:

So I’m just a single voice. I know there are people on the ground really fighting for, these kind of investment and, and attention to be given to the people and create more diverse community of developers and users and contributors, rather than depending on these big companies to continue to do what they are doing. So, yeah, I, I really don’t have a real answer.

00:29:17:06 – 00:29:24:18

Malvika:

I just want to continue to talk about it so more People are aware and people with more power can, you know, decide not to do this.

00:29:24:22 – 00:29:47:13

Victoria:

Yeah. Thank you. And I want to maybe connect this last topic to what we said earlier, which is having, researchers being involved and building this knowledge and having leaders in their own perspectives to take on the initiative, to educate people and to, to act from the scientific community as well. So, yeah, thank you so much, Malvika.

00:29:47:13 – 00:30:06:10

Victoria:

I’m really glad to have had you here. In this conversation today. So, yeah, I’m looking forward to seeing your work in the future. And I benefited very much also from my, from my side, from the Turing way and, and all the resources that you built in the communities that you build, over the years.

00:30:06:12 – 00:30:21:22

Victoria:

So thank you so much. And, thank you for listening to the Knowledge Catalyst and we look forward to our discussions in the future. Episodes. Thank you for listening to The Knowledge Catalyst. This is your co-host, Victoria. I am looking forward to the next chat.